lokifan_import: (Riley: pompous)
[personal profile] lokifan_import
Guess what I am going to do? Make a meta-y post about kink and rape fantasy in popular perception! Guess what I am also going to do? Mention Sarah Monette in a meta-y post!

Torches and pitchforks are by the door, everyone.




joomla visitor


So a little while ago I finished Sarah Monette’s Corambis, the last novel of her Doctrine of Labyrinths quartet. One of the themes in Monette’s work, despite her disdain for slashfic as fetishising gay people, is using slash tropes (whether knowingly or not) in a slightly undeconstructed sort of way. Which is interesting and a bit distressing but not what I want to talk about today.

Perhaps the only scene in the four books that I found properly sexy was the one in which one of our protagonists, depowered gay wizard Felix, takes up his old profession and ends up playing rentboy for a sexy dominant Duke. Very nice! But before we can get down to the blowjob action, we have to have an extremely peculiar moment of epiphany:

I had been trained as a martyr [sub]; my earliest memories of sex were also memories of pain, and that had only been reinforced, first by the clients of the Shining Tiger and then by Malkar. After Malkar, I had tried to renounce the whole game of tarquins [doms] and martyrs; I hadn’t wanted to want it. But I had failed and failed abysmally. There was something there that I needed, somewhere deeper in my heart than could be rooted out. But I hadn’t wanted to be a martyr, hadn’t wanted to be that vulnerable, so I had tried the tarquin’s role, and it had been as addictive as phoenix [fantasy heroin]. But I couldn’t be trusted with it. Whether I wanted to or not, I needed to give that power to someone else.

Say what?

Now, granted, this character has a complicated, abusive sexual history and there are pretty good reasons why he shouldn’t be looking to indulge his dominant side overmuch. (People with a pathological need for control: not the safest doms!) And one of the questions that comes up quite a bit in the Doctrine of Labryinths quartet is the relationship between kink, responsibility and abuse. But the fact that Felix, who seems by general inclination to be a switch, is always dominant in The Mirador when he’s channelling his nasty master, before Growing and Maturing and realising he needs to be a sub after all so that he can stay nice? Seems to me a pretty good example of this weird cultural meme in nominally more sex-positive spaces, a la Anita Blair-sexy fantasy and smutty fanfic: being kinky? We are cool with that! Being submissive and/or masochistic? Totally awesome! Being dominant and/or sadistic? ...Ooh-er. Well, if your partner likes that and initiated it, have fun I guess. But if you brought it up? You are probably a dodgy character. We are suspicious. You are going to turn out to be evil!

There does seem to be this feeling that being sadistic in a kinky sense really is morally inferior, even from people enjoying kinky fiction. There’s a line in a Meredyth Gentry novel (which admittedly I haven’t read, but I trust the review in question and its quotes) about how the sexy fairies, who it JUST EXPLICITLY SAID enjoy the blurring of pleasure and pain, also do not enjoy hurting each other because TORTURE IS WRONG. WTF. I mean I’m all for subs indulging each other but seriously WTF. Obviously Meredyth Gentry novels, not the highest standard for representation of kink, but again that sense of ‘weird cultural meme’, I has it.

It’s even more obvious when you get into non-con. (And I’m using that term specifically, cos this point is about rape fantasy, not rape - or even rape play, really.) It’s become a bit of a truism that rape fantasies are very common amongst women and nothing to be ashamed of. Which is all to the good, because being a submissive girl I have plenty of them :) But I get the distinct impression that having rape fantasies in which you are the rapist? Not really okay.

I’ve heard it said - and I have a lot of empathy for this, actually - that fans don’t feel bad about writing non-con smut because it’s aimed at women (generally implying the readers identify with the victim) but they couldn’t write het non-con aimed at men. Which I get. And the average woman, even one who fantasises about raping people, is statistically a lot less likely to actually rape someone than the average man. But that idea - that it’s okay to write non-con smut for women, implicitly because they identify with the victim - well, what about women who identify with the rapist? Is that okay? Is it okay, but less than it would be if they identified with the victim? Does it change according to what the fic/art features - is it okay to read non-con slash and identify with the rapist, but not so okay to read, say, Bellatrix/Harry or Ginny/Pansy non-con and get off on that?

The thing is, if I was writing, say, het non-con with a male aggressor, aimed at women, and then found out a bunch of dudes were reading it... I would be creeped out. There’s so much gender stuff, though, and it’s often rather contradictory: despite the feminist instinct to say NO GETTING OFF ON SEXUAL VIOLENCE, it’s anything but feminist to tell women their kinks are not okay, especially in this supposedly sex-positive, women-doing-it-for-themselves corner of the net. My instinct is to say Kink /= RL, end of, but I also don’t know that that is a... full enough response to all this. I don’t know how I feel about a lot of this stuff, and I don’t want to come off as doing this post because I Have A Theory. I’m just curious.

And also, you know, a little tired of the villain!dom/mes. It strikes me that this is all part of a perennial kink problem: kink by its nature gets lots of representation in porn, but there’s almost no positive representation outside of it. And porn is a terrible way to do anything but get people off. While the lack of positive representation of kink doesn’t pain me overmuch (partly, I’m sure, because as a submissive woman I’m not that far outside the mainstream), I do think it’s a shame that sexy novels and fanfic especially are prey to so many of the same assumptions. Sadistic = evil and kinkfic = darkfic and rape fantasy = okay if you’re the victim aren’t equations this space, which is supposedly so sex-positive and open and a place for women accepting their sexuality, should accept uncritically.

I mean, it’s hot and all when the villains torture people with BDSM iconography, but I’d really enjoy reading something where nobody ‘descended’ into dominance. Where ‘darkfic’ and ‘kinkfic’ weren’t quite so aligned. I’ve read some, but in almost all of them there’s an experienced sub initiating. Which is fine, but it reminds me of how cross-gen so often starts with the younger partner initiating. That is in large part to defuse the power dynamic potential creepiness, and it would be nice if characters who just like to be in charge in the bedroom didn’t have to be defused in that way.

Possibly I’m oversensitive to this stuff - but then, I’m really not dominant or sadistic at all. My only interest in all this is making sure potential future sexual partners feel no shame :D Which would be my cue, of course, to ask the dom/mes on the flist to weigh in, as well as everyone else. Thoughts?

Date: 2011-09-02 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] son-of-darkness.livejournal.com
I'm making cupcakes right now, but I just wanted to say that this post is awesome. :D *cheers*

Date: 2011-09-02 02:39 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
LOL KYE. I saw you commented and was like 'cool he will definitely have interesting thoughts' and then it was cupcakes and cheering :DDD ♥

Date: 2011-09-02 03:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] son-of-darkness.livejournal.com
lol, ok, cupcakes are in the oven.

Ahem... so yes. What you said about the subs generally being the ones to initiate is soooo common in fics, but ALSO I've seen a lot of that sort of thing being mentioned and discussed on kink forums, too, so it's something that's also happening a fair amount in RL as well. Not entirely sure why.

It could be, as you mention in your post, that it's seen as predatory and a bit creepy and skeevy for a dominant to initiate because it means they have to admit to a desire to want to dominate/hurt/control/inflict pain and suffering, which we are taught from a young age is WRONG and BAD!

Whereas if the sub initiates, it alleviates that sense of guilt and wrongness, because you've been given the ok. Also, it could be to do with diminished responsibility in some cases. If the sub is being particularly cheeky in a way that causes the dom/me to react, then it can be almost written off as "self defense"... in a playful sort of way, yes, but still there's that element of "reaction".

This is just off the top of my head, of course.

I have also found that most of the dominants who tend to "react" rather than "initiate" are often female, too. Male doms seem to be more ok with initiating. This might also explain why HP fics (mostly written by women) tend to follow this trend, too? IDK.


CUPCAKES!!! :D
Edited Date: 2011-09-02 03:44 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-09-02 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-of-clunn.livejournal.com
I waited a bit with commenting because I was very interested what others have to say. I must say I feel a bit like I fell through the mirror, LOL.

I'd also like to know what qualifies as 'initiating' - initiating the relationship as a whole or the D/s dynamic specifically?

This is not statistically sound at all but I feel as if I have read more fics in which the Dominant partner initiates than the other way around. It's all over HG/SS... *thinks* and Lumione... and Dramione... and I even think I dimly remember a few Hermione/Remus fics along that line...

Are we reading in different fandoms? LOL

In RL as well, my experience is more of the sort that there was a lack of female subs and whenever an unattached sub showed up, she didn't even have the chance to initiate anything because the Doms were already competing for her attention.

Now, I must admit that the last time I did something even remotely like public play was *sigh* ten, no, eleven years ago. And it was not in the UK.

So this could be a) a cultural difference or b) times have changed :)

Hmm. I once had a bloke pulling me because of my ring. That was more recent. But I think wearing a ring while being on the tube can hardly be called initiating ;)

Date: 2011-09-02 05:30 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
I will reply properly in a bit! But for me: slash vs het is my first guess. Is Hermione usually the sub in your favoured fics?

Date: 2011-09-02 05:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-of-clunn.livejournal.com
That's what I suspected. Howinteresting. I can't really compare because I don't read much D/s when I read slash.

(Although I read a D/H fic by Literaryspell yesterday and that was established relationship, but it's the third in a trilogy and as I didn't read the first two, I have no idea how everything started.)

Yes, Hermione is the sub, there are very, very few femme!Dom fics in het and reading them makes me feel weird. I am no switch and can't relate.

Date: 2011-09-02 10:15 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Interesting :)

I actually don't 'identify' with characters in texts in the way I talk about here - it's an enormously common phenomenon I picked up on pretty much entirely from reading book discussion online. So despite not being switchy, I have still read and enjoyed quite a bit of domme/male!sub smut.

Date: 2011-09-02 10:13 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Heh, very interesting!

I'd also like to know what qualifies as 'initiating' - initiating the relationship as a whole or the D/s dynamic specifically?

With this, I was thinking about the D/s dynamic specifically, although obviously the two are related.

I think it's interesting that in het D/s, the male dom initiates, compared with slash. It makes sense - the vaguely dangerous seducer is a classic trope, especially when you're pairing a heroine with an older and/or morally ambiguous bloke. But I wonder, again, if the fact that that trope comes from romance, and that the assumption presumably is that both readers and writers will be identifying with the female sub, is part of what makes that okay.

I think your experience in RL still holds pretty true - but since there are fewer male subs in these places, the lack of female dommes initiating is especially curious.

Date: 2011-09-03 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-of-clunn.livejournal.com
I need to run catch a bus in a few minutes, so this will be short and I'll be thinking about this all day and probably come back to it this evening.

Something just ocurred to me and I wanted to mention it. I sometimes read at the BDSM library (I know, I know, not exactly literary masterpieces) and most of the het authors there seem to be male. They mostly use the POV of the Dom, which is quite refreshing.

Could it be that female Dommes don't initiate as much because we are not exactly being encouraged to be dominant or initiate anything in general? I know this should be changing but looking at life realistically, assertive women are still often regarded sideways as bossy, butch or otherwise unnatural having her femininity questioned. It's awful but I am sure we are influenced by it at some level, like it or not.

And now I ran out of time. Talk to you later! :)

Date: 2011-09-03 11:10 am (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Yep - I absolutely think that's true. :(

Date: 2011-09-03 09:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lady-of-clunn.livejournal.com
I am pretty assertive when it comes to my job - let's face it, it's a jungle!

After an especially nasty phone call, the male colleague at the desk across from mine had the gall to ask me whether I am like this in bed, too.

Everybody goggled and I had the distinct impression that he would not have asked the same thing in case of the male colleague at the desk to his right.

I told him he'd never find out but BLODDY HELL!

Date: 2011-09-04 04:10 am (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Bellatrix: crucio!)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
WHAT. FAIL. SO SO GROSS.

Date: 2011-09-02 08:28 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
LOL. I hope they're delicious, bb.

Whereas if the sub initiates, it alleviates that sense of guilt and wrongness, because you've been given the ok. Also, it could be to do with diminished responsibility in some cases. If the sub is being particularly cheeky in a way that causes the dom/me to react, then it can be almost written off as "self defense"... in a playful sort of way

I can see that second one, definitely. And I can see it being extra applicable in fic compared with RL, because so much kinkfic involves that rivalry/give-and-take element, especially in hateships.

Sort of makes me sad in RL though. Poor male subs who don't want to be cheeky types, and poor female dommes all constrained by social mores!

This might also explain why HP fics (mostly written by women) tend to follow this trend, too? IDK.

That's an interesting one, and something I hadn't thought of. Maybe since women are typically more aware of the possibility of people hitting on you and being creepy/overly persistent, they feel a need to be clear to the reader that their dom/me Isn't Like That?

I wonder if people interested in kink IRL do it differently, and if dom/mes do it differently from subs. Cos, like, I know you and I share a wish for dom/mes to intiate with us at least a bit :) And since my dom/mes are generally Fantasy Dom/mes who always know what the sub wants and pushes them just the right amount and go on and on and bloody ON about how pretty and lovely and amazing the sub is - they iniatate pretty 100% of the time :D

Date: 2011-09-02 02:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ceciliaj.livejournal.com
Very interesting stuff!

I’d really enjoy reading something where nobody ‘descended’ into dominance. Where ‘darkfic’ and ‘kinkfic’ weren’t quite so aligned.

That is especially nicely put. I would also be interested in disentangling those.

Date: 2011-09-02 03:11 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (deviant)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Thanks :)

It would make me so happy! I like kinky darkfic a lot, but the *assumption* that kinky = dark has so much unpleasant baggage. Besides, I am selfish and I want more fluffy, established-relationship kink.

Date: 2011-09-02 03:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nomango.livejournal.com
I had this conversation with a dom once, about how I was pretty discreet about my sub tendencies because people look down on it, and he said 'try telling people you like controlling and hitting women!' - I think people who don't get involved in powerplay have a hard time realising that it's not about good and evil, just lock and key, satisfying mutual and opposing needs.

Date: 2011-09-02 04:12 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Yep, exactly. I had that conversation with a male friend at uni.

'Lock and key' is a perfect way of putting it :DDD AWW.

The thing is that in fics, it's probably even easier than in RL to slip into the sub = victim = good dynamic, because that dynamic lends itself to certain tropes and plots that are fun. But... yeah.

I think part of the complication is that when I read sexy/kinky darkfic, the 'victim' isn't getting off on it but I am. When I read kinkfic that's consensual and/or not dark, the sub *and* me are getting off on it.

Date: 2011-09-02 04:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pocochina.livejournal.com
snaps for this post!

There's a weird kind of sub-meme (edit: pfft, I see what I did there; NO PUN INTENDED. unless people think it's funny) of this, where female characters who generally own their sexuality kind of get pushed into "sex is ALL ABOUT POWER" for them; the fact that they have sexuality at all means they are sexually aggressive and definitely toppy. (In fan perception, for sure; but even in-universe with Faith.)

And there's not a thing in the world wrong with being a HBIC in and out of bed? But it starts to feel like yet another polarized dichotomy of female sexuality, with the "all women subs" getting the tiniest loophole of "unless they are screwed up enough in some way (!) to TELL EVERYONE ALL ABOUT IT ALL THE TIME," and then if a woman is sexual, she is so in a way that is (unfairly, obviously) marked as deviant and dangerous. The discomfort about women and sexual power gets kicked up to eleven.

blah blah rambling, but this is all really interesting, thank you.
Edited Date: 2011-09-02 04:04 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-09-02 05:46 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Faith/Buffy: Buffy likes to top)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Thank you!

Wow. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that, but it's so true - female characters who own their sexuality are all toppy. I can't think of anyone who's been super-enthusiastic about submitting in that way. Darla is quite close, being a masochist and in a relationship with Alpha!Angel, but since she's the sire and v manipulative and is rather often on top... (And, of course, she's physically on top when she's manipulating Angel in his dreams, and when Angel snaps he 'descends into dominance' and switches it up.)

Basically, yes. V interesting point. (Oh Faith. I love you so much and you are so problematic.)

Date: 2011-09-02 08:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catbirdfish.livejournal.com
Maybe Saffron? (re: female character owning sexuality in submissive way)

Date: 2011-09-02 08:19 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Saffron? The only Saffron who's coming to mind is the Hilary McKay character, and in the novels with her that I've read she shows little sexuality at all...

Date: 2011-09-02 08:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catbirdfish.livejournal.com
Saffron from Firefly. :)

Date: 2011-09-02 08:43 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Er, yeah. You just discovered my dirty Buffy fan secret: I've seen maybe three Firefly episodes :)

Date: 2011-09-02 04:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sabethea.livejournal.com
Ooh, interesting. Lots to think about here. Intriguing partly because one of my latest stories published was m/m dom-first-person loving kink and it hadn't even OCCURRED to me that it was a rare thing.

But that is easier than the non-con stuff. Because yeah, it's weird how 'having rape fantasies' is evidently not condoning rape if you're the 'victim' but seem more uncomfortable if you're the 'aggressor'. ESPECIALLY when it's male-aggressor/female-victim.

In the same way, however, I find it really REALLY disturbing when people suggest that reading rape stories/watching rape porn makes people more likely to act it out. FFS, I read murder mysteries all the time, and I can't say I've ever been tempted to wander around with a gun (or even to 'hunt out murderers' as a part-time hobby). So - I think I basically fall on this side of the divide, rather than the "don't have committing-rape fantasies it's evil" but I can see how people think both ways.

Date: 2011-09-02 05:50 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
:) I love that stuff! It's often not rare, as such, but it's... I dunno, there's not as much as I would think. And quite often there's a happy ending after kinky sex, but the kink was actually an expression of dysfunction - oh, we cannot tell each other how we feel, we will just have hot kinky sex - and it's wrapped up with loving vanilla to show that the pairing will stay together now.

Yes. The non-con stuff... it is complicated. And yeah, I definitely fall on your side of the divide too. Maybe it's about the level of self-knowingness? Because I do think that, for instance, the huge number of horror films with loads of footage of young women being titillatingly helpless, then raped, then slowly killed, is an expression of misogyny. So uurrrgh conflicted.

Date: 2011-09-02 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catbirdfish.livejournal.com
well, what about women who identify with the rapist? Is that okay? Is it okay, but less than it would be if they identified with the victim?

GOOD QUESTIONS. As a woman who somewhat identifies as dominant (switch, actually), I'd feel weird about revealing that side of myself to others (outside the kink community). I'd feel especially weird about revealing that I have rape fantasies where a man is the victim.

Where ‘darkfic’ and ‘kinkfic’ weren’t quite so aligned.

Agreed.

Date: 2011-09-02 08:21 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (tawse)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Thanks! And yeah, I get that it's complicated. I am going to be v cheeky, and ask - if you'd feel weird revealing that you have fantasies about raping a man, do you feel more/less guilty about rape fantasies with a female victim? Feel free to not answer, though :)

MOAR LOVING KINK ALL THE TIME. It's like my Fandom Cause.

Date: 2011-09-02 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] catbirdfish.livejournal.com
I think more embarrassed about a male victim. I guess because I'm afraid of being seen as the stereotypical man-hating feminist (a lot more people know I identify as feminist). And then there's the fact that I aspire to teach at the high school level someday, so I'm terrified that someone could prejudge me as an abuser of power. A frightening amount of of people don't understand kink /= real life.

Date: 2011-09-02 10:03 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Aaahhh. Yes, I can definitely see that :)

:S I hate that that is such a legitimate concern.

Date: 2011-09-02 09:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dora-the-nymph.livejournal.com
We shall drink and stay up late and discuss this at some point and it will be awesome. But I am tired and not very good at expressing thoughts in text recently (shut up people point out I am no good in speech either!).

*dances*

Date: 2011-09-02 10:04 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
:DDD This comment made me really happy! YES WE SHALL.

Date: 2011-09-02 09:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mayfly-78.livejournal.com
This is a very interesting post and discussion. You mention things I have thought about and am confused about, and a couple I hadn't thought about.

Fanfiction was what really introduced me to the kinkier side of sexuality. I am rather embarrassed to say that I am very vanilla in RL. And even though I have grown to enjoy BDSM fiction and porn, I still would never do it in RL. Does that make me weird?

The thing is, that in fanfiction, especially kinky fanfiction, the writers are usually working things out and experimenting themselves. Which can give very interesting results. Sometimes you discover things you would never have thought about. Other times you end up feeling decidedly unsettled and uncomfortable.

About the D/s dynamic you mention, I guess this is why in H/D that is D/s I prefer H=D and D=s. (Maths nerd!) Because I like to think of Harry as a quintessentially good guy (aka a safe dom) and Draco as a pushy overbearing sub (aka not a total pushover). Maybe that just proves how vanilla I am and my serious consent and power issues.

As for rape!fic, let's not go there. It's something I probably will never understand. I still haven't forgiven Almodovar for that scene in Kika!

Sorry if I just made the waters murkier!

Date: 2011-09-02 10:09 pm (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Thinky thoughts)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
It's not weird at all to like kinky fic and be vanilla IRL - loads of people are :)

Mmm, definitely. The interplay between writerly experimentation and sexual experimentation adds some interesting stuff, I think.

this is why in H/D that is D/s I prefer H=D and D=s. (Maths nerd!) Because I like to think of Harry as a quintessentially good guy (aka a safe dom) and Draco as a pushy overbearing sub (aka not a total pushover)

Makes perfect sense to me. I don't think it proves how vanilla you are at all :) I can really get into that interpretation of them, especially since with loving kink I like limits-pushing-but-indulgent doms. Which I can totally see Harry as.

And actually, I think the fact that you want to see the quintessentially good guy as the dom in D/s, coupled with your consent/power issues, is a v valuable contribution, along with your other thoughts :)

Besides, these waters come pre-murkified.

Date: 2011-09-03 05:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melusinahp.livejournal.com
love to this post. will comment further when I get home

Date: 2011-09-04 04:11 am (UTC)
lokifan: black Converse against a black background (Default)
From: [personal profile] lokifan
Yay!! I'm curious to see what you think. Hope Wales (and the in-laws, presumably?) are treating you well :)

Date: 2011-09-04 08:27 pm (UTC)
ext_33229: replace fear of the unknown with curiosity (Default)
From: [identity profile] tuawahine.livejournal.com
Very interesting post with much food for thought.

I used the trope of sadistic (= villain in this case) master in my slavefic and got a (very nice) comment to the effect of "there should be positively portrayed sadists as well". I hadn't even realised I was writing a trope, but after thinking about it decided that commenter was right. It also made me realise how deeply ingrained the whole "violence = bad" thing is for me.

Which is kind of funny, because
what about women who identify with the rapist? Is that okay?
is a question that is almost too close for comfort for me. It's one reason why discovering BDSM fic (and the concept of BDSM itself) came as such a huge relief to me. (I don't always identify with the same side; generally I think I sort of identify with both at the same time, if that makes sense.)

The thing is, if I was writing, say, het non-con with a male aggressor, aimed at women, and then found out a bunch of dudes were reading it... I would be creeped out.
That. Yes. (The first comment on my one femslash D/s fic was by a 60 year old guy, according to the profile. My first thought was "I didn't write this for you". Not fair, I know, but somehow I expected to be writing for women only.)

Regarding who initiates, if it's meant to be consensual, then personally I need to see that in the fic. The easiest way to do it, I guess, is to have the sub or younger partner initiate. I like the occasional Regency romance, but nothing turns me off faster than supposed consensual encounters that come across as dub-con because the swooning maiden can't help herself. Not sexy, imo.

Date: 2011-09-04 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nixied.livejournal.com
I apologise in advance for what will doubtlessly be a useless massive comment. I think I got a bit lost somewhere in the middle, maybe it's because my brain is still chewing over the sub=martyr bit -.-

The majority of kinky stories I've read tend to be m/m and have an initiating dom. I've read stories with initiating subs, but it definitely doesn't make up the majority of my kinky fare. Maybe it's the Snarry, which has a lot of dominant sadistic Snape. Or the yaoi which generally have aggressive assertive tops. Also, the published kink slash I read generally has assertive doms, who take charge and push submissives. I also enjoy a lot of BtVS/Angel het, which trade off on the dominant partner being male or female. Personally, I love me some Buffy/Giles, were she's all take charge and there's no angst about it, which is rare, but delicious.

I've also watched a lot of porn, mmmm...porn, *cough*, well it can be a good place to start with encouraging people to be more accepting of sadistic/dom preferences, you just need to go with the right directors.

When it comes to putting kink cards on the table? ... is it really fair to go to someone, "hey I want to do x, y and z to you" when you don't really know how to go about it, or to do it, or whether or not it'll work, you can count your sexual partners on one hand and next to no experience with kink, and who knows maybe it was just a fantasy and doesn't work in reality? ... it's incredibly daunting my issues, let me whine about them.

And there's definitely the pressure of society's judgment saying you're wrong if you want to do this. Which definitely spills over to literature and media. Perhaps, there's also the consideration that for a lot of people it's a lot less skeevy to image being asked to take a position of power, than to picture someone asking to have power over another if you aren't personally into doing it.

And I'm just meandering all over, completely failing at getting to a point, so I'll shut up.

I am so going to regret posting this in the morning

Profile

lokifan_import: (Default)
lokifan_import

September 2011

S M T W T F S
     1 2 3
45 678910
111213 14151617
181920 2122 2324
252627282930 

Most Popular Tags

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags
Page generated Jul. 28th, 2017 05:02 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios